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Post by meteornate on Aug 22, 2021 22:28:11 GMT
1. "Well Cape is null and voting me ergo mafia"? No. Even if it was right, it's not going to get past the actual problem of that EoD, which is that there is no consensus."You called me town, this is what I do not understand you never switched up your read on me until I voted you. Essentially you just omgused me and put me in your POE at the end of the day. Not to mention, you did think Cyclone was town and he was doing the same thing as I was.
I called you a town-lean, sure. You could note that I only put 4 people as non-condemns, being my 3 hard town reads and Auryxx. That had 8 people as potential condemns. Included among those are other town-leans. You're acting as though I'm barred from reconsidering your slot just because I leaned it town at one stage in the game. Clearly, not all 8 of the people I listed are mafia. However, you specifically take offense at the idea that I can consider you mafia. It gives the impression that you were hoping that I wouldn't push back since I had you TL'd, and you got complacent.
I did think Cyclone is town. You were not doing the same thing. Cyclone had made other reads on the game which made him town. This is the second time you've attempted to deflect to Cyclone as a whataboutism when addressing my read on you, as well.2. How are we "losing" if you don't make a call, you practically helped mafia during the EOD of day 1. Your not a ""town vigilante""" sorry to burst your bubble.Mafia is a game where the initiative is on town to take action to win the game. Condemning people is the only way you will kill mafia. Worse yet, (I believe this is well-established fact so I won't bring in supporting evidence since it's actually hard to navigate MS wiki to find the stuff that talks about this but ik I've read it) being on even parity, such as 9:3, is worse for town than being at 8:3. If Ez flipped VT and Moldy didn't get modkilled, there would not even be a discussion that this was the right call. Yes, the play I made benefitted mafia. The alternative I was presented with benefits mafia more.3. Don't know what you are doubting, I am telling the truth. And since Moldy flipped blue, why are you making the argument that it was unnatural? (Cape I am going to stop you there for a second, Nate probably means, at the time, Nate thought Moldy's rage was unnatural) (Fair if this is the case, like I disagree, but that is because I have seen too many town pull that sort of thing).4. You worded it as I was scummy because I was not there during the EOD on multiple occasions and never made that at all clear until now. Bro what is the whole passing the Buck thing? You literally recognize I was sussing you BEFORE the flip right? Yes my reads do change, at least I sort of gave a reason day 1, you did not.If my wording is unclear, I apologize. I scum-read you for placing the blame at my feet for choosing the lesser of two evils, caused by your (among others') absence. I don't doubt that you were absent, and that you were at work. My concern is that since you were absent, it does put me in a situation where I have to choose between two evils, and you are then pushing me for not having created some magical fairy-tale land where we land a vote on someone completely different. You are using the fact that you weren't there to wipe your hands of the situation, and then blame me for the harm that occurred. THAT is why I scum-read you.5. Game probably went better for you. Yes. (Idk what this means?)
6. "I think he's full of it and just wants to hard-steer the game"... You think? I mean, you absolutely know that his claim is fake here.
www.grammarly.com/blog/compound-sentence/
7. You know that, like, my initial post was written at night correct? Okay, and? "Individually, you created no emergency. However, when you and 5 others are missing, it is absolutely an emergency. One which you had a hand in creating." - Nate
Nate on one finger: Cape is scum for not being there at the EOD. Never suggested this.
Nate on the other finger: Cape is not scum for being there at the EOD.
Also like, you may have not been like, the root cause for the kill on Clapster. But you certainly helped in having him die.
I have been incredibly clear that I am not scum-reading you for being absent. I believe that you were at work. I am scum-reading you for using that (accurate) excuse to absolve yourself of what happens at the end of the day, and then blame me for the fact that I chose an evil when I am only permitted to choose between two evils due to this absence. If I scum-read you just for being absent, why am I not just entering here with a list of people who did not show up for the end of the day and try to push them?
I did help Ez die. I rallied people to get a condemn on a day that was going to end in a NC. Had I not, or even if I had started a different wagon, we would have failed to condemn on that day. Better for Ez to be flipped and maintain odd parity than for no one to die, end up on even parity, and for people to either suspect him later or he dies and we end up in a far more difficult MYLO situation than we would have been in for a LYLO situation. The only reason why it's even arguable that my action was not pro-town is because he flipped gunsmith (something I couldn't have known) and because Moldy got modkilled (something else I couldn't have known). |
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Post by meteornate on Aug 22, 2021 22:29:52 GMT
Okay I'm going to make the world's simplest sorting tool: People I won't vote on today: Cyclone Ez DK Auryxx People I would vote on today: Cape Cows Pretender Scotland Hockey Moldy Thought Doj From that list:
Cape -> Me
Cows -> Hockey
Pretender -> DK ( )
Scot
Hockey
Moldy -> Hockey(?)
Thought -> DK
Doj
Also in this post, maybe I am confused. Was the bolded not some sort of POE thing or who one another was voting at the time? I interpeted it as "from this list, if you kill cape who is in my POE and he flips town, THEN (the then meanting the arrow) you get me". But it looks like you are perhaps just talking about who is voting who here? My vote never counted, I didn't know that at the time This was just an unofficial vote count to see where people within the PoE were leaning on other people within the PoE. I did 3 "?"s for some when it was unclear where their head was and it autocorrected to a weird face for some reason. |
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Post by meteornate on Aug 22, 2021 22:30:36 GMT
Alright Nate, if you are town, why are me and Cyclone scumpaired? Why would I hard pocket and hard protect my mafia partner. Why would I need to create an elaborate scumcase as scum ALONG with xCyclones' aforementioned "fake" cop claim? I have.... specifically stated the opposite of this? Are you reading anything I've said at this point? |
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Post by meteornate on Aug 22, 2021 22:31:26 GMT
Alright Nate, if you are town, why are me and Cyclone scumpaired? Why would I hard pocket and hard protect my mafia partner. Why would I need to create an elaborate scumcase as scum ALONG with xCyclones' aforementioned "fake" cop claim? I have.... specifically stated the opposite of this? Are you reading anything I've said at this point? |
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xCyclone
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Post by xCyclone on Aug 22, 2021 22:33:37 GMT
Cape stop wasting your time on confirmed mafia and start realizing that Hockey is the third please and thank you
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cape90
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Post by cape90 on Aug 22, 2021 22:34:31 GMT
Alright Nate, if you are town, why are me and Cyclone scumpaired? Why would I hard pocket and hard protect my mafia partner. Why would I need to create an elaborate scumcase as scum ALONG with xCyclones' aforementioned "fake" cop claim? I have.... specifically stated the opposite of this? Are you reading anything I've said at this point? Sorry, I did skim that post that I probably should have read. So like, from your POV I have to be town here. What world is Cyclone town to you? |
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cape90
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Post by cape90 on Aug 22, 2021 22:36:37 GMT
Cape stop wasting your time on confirmed mafia and start realizing that Hockey is the third please and thank you 1. Yes I do scumread hockeyfan quite a lot actually, you have read my content no? 2. Mafia is a game of thinking, you are not confirmed town to me, I have to hear both sides |
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cape90
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Post by cape90 on Aug 22, 2021 22:40:35 GMT
I have.... specifically stated the opposite of this? Are you reading anything I've said at this point? Sorry, I did skim that post that I probably should have read. So like, from your POV I have to be town here. What world is Cyclone town to you? Like, Cyclone said he is hard claiming, not retracting, not a chance you see his slot as town, which makes the tinfoily part of your post in which you address this pretty confusing to me |
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xCyclone
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Post by xCyclone on Aug 22, 2021 22:41:07 GMT
Cape stop wasting your time on confirmed mafia and start realizing that Hockey is the third please and thank you 1. Yes I do scumread hockeyfan quite a lot actually, you have read my content no? 2. Mafia is a game of thinking, you are not confirmed town to me, I have to hear both sides 1. I have, my point was responding to Nate now is almost entirely useless 2. At this point in the game you and I are basically hard-aligned so it shouldn't be a huge decision |
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xCyclone
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Post by xCyclone on Aug 22, 2021 23:03:36 GMT
Just red checked a mafia, got the team pinned down and I unlocked Mariano Rivera.
Life is good.
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Post by meteornate on Aug 22, 2021 23:09:26 GMT
I have.... specifically stated the opposite of this? Are you reading anything I've said at this point? Sorry, I did skim that post that I probably should have read. So like, from your POV I have to be town here. What world is Cyclone town to you? There were a few posts where Cyclone suggested that they were not absolutely certain I was mafia, which led to the world where he's just fake-claiming. In the alternative where he sticks with the claim, I think said fence-sitting is still relevant since he's likely trying to feel out how likely he's going to get snap voted after I flip. mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5706/thread This is indicative of a reaction test, not a real claim. mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5688/threadAll of these suggest blaming me/suggesting a pivot to "Nate deserved to die because he didn't do x" after I flip blue as a justification. Further, questioning mean implies lack of knowledge as to my alignment. This is addressed in: mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5708/threadThis is again trying to put me in some "A should have done x; B should have done y" situation. (To internally respond to his comment as well, I never blamed Cyclone for not making a pivot. I pointed out that he didn't pivot because his blame on me for not pivoting makes no sense with the consideration that he very willingly did the same. I place no greater blame on Cyclone for Ez's vote than on myself.) mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5658/threadAgain, attempting to justify his belief which should already be certain. mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5645/thread Why is he concerned with who I push if he's cop? Who the fuck cares what I'm pushing if he has a real sided check on me. mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5644/threadAnd finally: mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5713/threadWhen you have the town-cred to not immediately die if you're wrong and/or need to defuse, that's when you fake-claim. If he's highly town-read and I'm not a particularly unpopular push, why is he claiming cop in the first place? He didn't even attempt to test the waters and see how likely it is that I would get voted before immediately claiming cop. He could have very easily remained hidden as cop whilst pushing me if he did actually have a red check on me. Instead, he doesn't have one, hence why he's bluffing it and seeing how it goes over. |
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Post by shellyc on Aug 22, 2021 23:13:06 GMT
OFFICIAL VOTECOUNT 2.04With 10 votes in play, it takes 6 to launch into oblivion.MeteorNate (3): Scotland HockeyFan (1): cowsloveSushirolls Auryxx (3): ThePretender, Cape90, Cyclone Not Voting (5): Auryxx, DkKoba, HockeyFan123, MeteorNate, Dojima Deadline: 6 days, 0 hours Mod Notes: - I’ll try to provide one VC in the morning and one at night. - For the real-time countdown, check the Live Countdown bot in the #announcements channel on Discord. |
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Post by meteornate on Aug 22, 2021 23:22:26 GMT
As an aside since I had the thoroughly unenjoyable experience of going through Cyclone's ISO for that post:
It's pretty disappointing that you can't avoid resorting to ad-hominem attacks and generally being rude and unenjoyable to play with, Cyclone. Even if you're scum, you don't need to try and call me or whoever you dislike at the current time a variety of rude names to try to legitimize your push.
I don't even think I've said anything particularly rude or unbecoming to you until this point. I've talked about EoD for D1 and the modkill and why both were frustrating and unfair, but I don't think I've ever attacked anyone in an individual capacity for it. (Outside the mods, maybe, for the modkill. Sorry mods. It's a tough situation and I don't place blame for it happening here, but it is something we need to analyze how to handle it better for if it comes up again.)
Other than that, it's basically just "Nate thinks he did the right thing, made the best out of a bad situation, and therefore it is time to personally attack him for a predictably bad outcome"?
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xCyclone
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Post by xCyclone on Aug 22, 2021 23:42:06 GMT
As an aside since I had the thoroughly unenjoyable experience of going through Cyclone's ISO for that post: It's pretty disappointing that you can't avoid resorting to ad-hominem attacks and generally being rude and unenjoyable to play with, Cyclone. Even if you're scum, you don't need to try and call me or whoever you dislike at the current time a variety of rude names to try to legitimize your push. I don't even think I've said anything particularly rude or unbecoming to you until this point. I've talked about EoD for D1 and the modkill and why both were frustrating and unfair, but I don't think I've ever attacked anyone in an individual capacity for it. (Outside the mods, maybe, for the modkill. Sorry mods. It's a tough situation and I don't place blame for it happening here, but it is something we need to analyze how to handle it better for if it comes up again.) Other than that, it's basically just "Nate thinks he did the right thing, made the best out of a bad situation, and therefore it is time to personally attack him for a predictably bad outcome"? @shelly Nate has 1 vote, not 3 You immediately came in and started yelling out of rage and blamed everyone other than yourself. It was an unpleasant experience. The "making excuses" part had to do with being outed. I just don't know why you can't just play without resorting to attacking people. I attacked you because, to be honest, your attitude was shitty. Accept the loss with grace man. If you are seriously upset about Luryxx and MeteorRage/MeteorMald I'm not apologizing for those as they are funny and aren't even that much of an "attack." My point was this- your inability to accept responsibility for it has not only made you mafia, it's made you go on this massive tirade that's been kind of an annoyance to play with, so I attacked you for it both in game and made some snide comments about it. Cape also commented on your anger, this isn't some one dimensional thing only I'm seeing. Your attacks all carry passive-aggressive tones to them, like linking the meaning of a compound sentence to Cape's post (which was admittedly funny but it's a double standard if you are upset with me over this), so I'm not sure where this comes from. I apologize for outing you and your team as mafia. |
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xCyclone
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Post by xCyclone on Aug 22, 2021 23:44:48 GMT
And I'm not bluffing. Nothing here shows that I'm bluffing. That was your final attempt to push something through that is not going to resonate with me.
I have decided that I do not want to kill Auryxx today, I want to kill MeteorNate. I want the order to be Nate -> Auryxx -> Hockey. This is going to be followed, because I do not care what gambits Nate is attempting to make by calling me town here. I need him flipped as mafia, right now.
Also, this entire thing where Nate is attacking me without actually attacking me should remove any and all chances of a partnership.
Vote: MeteorNate
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Scotland
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TAKE ME BACK TO CHAT MAFIA FORUM IS TOO FUCKING HARDDD
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Pronouns: weird/weirdo
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Post by Scotland on Aug 22, 2021 23:51:15 GMT
oh hey guys, hii nate how are you and how do you feel about the claims cyclone is making
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Scotland
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TAKE ME BACK TO CHAT MAFIA FORUM IS TOO FUCKING HARDDD
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Post by Scotland on Aug 22, 2021 23:52:14 GMT
please claim miller
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xCyclone
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Post by xCyclone on Aug 22, 2021 23:52:50 GMT
oh hey guys, hii nate how are you and how do you feel about the claims cyclone is making he just made like 10 posts on them did you not read them Also, where do you stand on all of this? I see you voting Nate, what are your current thoughts. I have you as town but I'm still wondering. |
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cape90
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Post by cape90 on Aug 22, 2021 23:53:26 GMT
Sorry, I did skim that post that I probably should have read. So like, from your POV I have to be town here. What world is Cyclone town to you? There were a few posts where Cyclone suggested that they were not absolutely certain I was mafia, which led to the world where he's just fake-claiming. In the alternative where he sticks with the claim, I think said fence-sitting is still relevant since he's likely trying to feel out how likely he's going to get snap voted after I flip. mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5706/thread This is indicative of a reaction test, not a real claim. mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5688/threadAll of these suggest blaming me/suggesting a pivot to "Nate deserved to die because he didn't do x" after I flip blue as a justification. Further, questioning mean implies lack of knowledge as to my alignment. This is addressed in: mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5708/threadThis is again trying to put me in some "A should have done x; B should have done y" situation. (To internally respond to his comment as well, I never blamed Cyclone for not making a pivot. I pointed out that he didn't pivot because his blame on me for not pivoting makes no sense with the consideration that he very willingly did the same. I place no greater blame on Cyclone for Ez's vote than on myself.) mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5658/threadAgain, attempting to justify his belief which should already be certain. mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5645/thread Why is he concerned with who I push if he's cop? Who the fuck cares what I'm pushing if he has a real sided check on me. mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5644/threadAnd finally: mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5713/threadWhen you have the town-cred to not immediately die if you're wrong and/or need to defuse, that's when you fake-claim. If he's highly town-read and I'm not a particularly unpopular push, why is he claiming cop in the first place? He didn't even attempt to test the waters and see how likely it is that I would get voted before immediately claiming cop. He could have very easily remained hidden as cop whilst pushing me if he did actually have a red check on me. Instead, he doesn't have one, hence why he's bluffing it and seeing how it goes over. I have actually noticed that, but I do recognize that xCyclone is not weaversden. I don't think Cyclone would pull this as like, vanilla town. But I don't know, I think I am getting your argument a bit more though. Whatever I am more certain on Auryxx being scum here anyway at this point |
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xCyclone
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Post by xCyclone on Aug 22, 2021 23:57:50 GMT
Claim: Cyclone is weaversden
Evidence: chad gaming
Reasoning: weaversden made an alias under the name xCyclone in order to get their quarrels against the community out of the way, all whilst still gaming and manipulating the community even outside of the game
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xCyclone
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Post by xCyclone on Aug 22, 2021 23:58:50 GMT
Memes aside Cape what the FUCK Nate has me marked as town and is hard pushing you and we are HARD ALIGNED can you just help me kill this man today he is red checked I swear I'm going to lose my mind
You are not going to let Nate talk you out of this, we kill him today.
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xCyclone
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Post by xCyclone on Aug 23, 2021 0:26:17 GMT
Alright, listen up. Nate is dying today. And here's why. I'm going to give individual reasons that every single person in this game should realize that this is the superior vote to Auryxx today.
This will all be coming from an outside perspective because it's explaining why today's vote is optimal no matter what information you have. So none of that "Cyclone is outing as fake here!!!" BS. I'm hard claiming Cop. I'm not retracting. I am real.
Auryxx is claiming Neap. There are definitely not 3 investigatives in the setup, so one of us has to be lying. That is known info.
If Nate is red, I am confirmed and Auryxx has to be mafia.
If Auryxx flips red, I am also practically confirmed and Nate has to be mafia. Here's the difference.
If Auryxx wants to survive, he has to keep me alive. If we vote Nate and he wants to stay alive, he has to keep me up. If he keeps me up, everyone receives extra information, because he will out fake info (unless claimed RBed again) and I will also likely have extra information.
Voting Auryxx means there is a 100 percent chance I die, but voting Nate means there is a small chance I stay alive. Both flip red and are consensus mafia.
Another reason that Pretender especially shouldn't have skepticism over this is because since he pairs me with Nate, and has Nate mafia in both worlds, he knows this is a safe condemn. His avenue especially is trying to solve this today when if he has consensus mafia that lines up with one of the PR claims, you should always kill it.
Keeping the PR's up gives extra information. Auryxx is consensus mafia but it's also possible that his only line to winning this game is by keeping me alive. So if he does, we get the game solved that much sooner.
All of this only happens if Auryxx is alive. The moment we kill Auryxx, I die, information lost. Nate dies, and then you are left to find the third with nothing but my hard legacy on Hockey and the words of others. Sure, that might work out, but the optimal play is to kill Nate today.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
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Scotland
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TAKE ME BACK TO CHAT MAFIA FORUM IS TOO FUCKING HARDDD
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Post by Scotland on Aug 23, 2021 0:52:35 GMT
oh hey guys, hii nate how are you and how do you feel about the claims cyclone is making he just made like 10 posts on them did you not read them Also, where do you stand on all of this? I see you voting Nate, what are your current thoughts. I have you as town but I'm still wondering. nope lmao i honestly believe you for now but im a bit skeptical because from the looks of it you unvoted nate which is literally your fucking sided check :/ |
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Post by meteornate on Aug 23, 2021 0:53:18 GMT
As an aside since I had the thoroughly unenjoyable experience of going through Cyclone's ISO for that post: It's pretty disappointing that you can't avoid resorting to ad-hominem attacks and generally being rude and unenjoyable to play with, Cyclone. Even if you're scum, you don't need to try and call me or whoever you dislike at the current time a variety of rude names to try to legitimize your push. I don't even think I've said anything particularly rude or unbecoming to you until this point. I've talked about EoD for D1 and the modkill and why both were frustrating and unfair, but I don't think I've ever attacked anyone in an individual capacity for it. (Outside the mods, maybe, for the modkill. Sorry mods. It's a tough situation and I don't place blame for it happening here, but it is something we need to analyze how to handle it better for if it comes up again.) Other than that, it's basically just "Nate thinks he did the right thing, made the best out of a bad situation, and therefore it is time to personally attack him for a predictably bad outcome"? @shelly Nate has 1 vote, not 3 You immediately came in and started yelling out of rage and blamed everyone other than yourself. It was an unpleasant experience. There is a strong distinction between complaining about an unfair game situation and calling someone jackass, asshat, etc. I have stated that I am disappointed that half of the lobby was not there at EoD. I think that is a very fair criticism. That is as far as my blame has gone. We are capable of having better games than that. My criticisms have never been ones of lack of ability, but ones based on lack of will. Not everyone is going to be here for EoD, but 6 people clearly does not contain the mafia. At the very least, this is where we point something out and ask for the timer to be adjusted slightly if so needed. All the same, I did not, at any stage, individually attack people for this.
Also how is this also somehow being pinned solely on me? DK, you, and Cape all complained about the same EoD situation right after the day started. But it's wrong when I'm upset about it and am looking into why it happened?
Being pushed for making the correct play in a bad situation is indeed frustrating. Games decided by bugs[for games outside mafia]/mod-errors are very frustrating. At no point in that did I resort to name-calling or similar ad-hominem attacks, though. I predict that if I define what I mean by some of these, outside simply posting the most literal of examples, you will respond similarly to this:
mafiascum-closedgame.freeforums.net/post/5675/thread
I tried, without any ill-will, to explain something that seemed to just be a source of confusion/unfamiliarity. You assume passive-aggression in some of these comments that just isn't there, which I think is part of the issue.
I could also point to your personal agenda to try to discredit me out-of-game and push that I'm just bad at the game, but idt that's nearly as much of an issue. (To the extent that the same could be applied from my interaction with Scotland earlier, I again apologize, but I also again note that it was not a criticism which was intended to be based in lack of ability, but one of lack of desire to push reads.)
I don't think it's a good thing for me to come here and just try to make the lower blow here. No one wins from that. So I'm addressing it directly. I don't want this, or other games involving the two of us, to become slews of ad-hominem attacks. If I did that, I probably get some minor satisfaction out of any time I think "man I really got him!", but, really, it overall makes games between us worse, and I'm sure it's unpleasant for third parties.The "making excuses" part had to do with being outed. I just don't know why you can't just play without resorting to attacking people. ? I attacked you because, to be honest, your attitude was shitty. Accept the loss with grace man. If you are seriously upset about Luryxx and MeteorRage/MeteorMald I'm not apologizing for those as they are funny and aren't even that much of an "attack." I am not.My point was this- your inability to accept responsibility for it has not only made you mafia, it's made you go on this massive tirade that's been kind of an annoyance to play with, so I attacked you for it both in game and made some snide comments about it. Cape also commented on your anger, this isn't some one dimensional thing only I'm seeing. You have--at no stage--actually addressed my response/reasoning for voting on Ez. You are still sticking to the same "no responsibility" idea you were on from the start. I have stated previously that it's a semantical argument, since you see it as "I am town who did a scummy thing." whereas I see it as "I had limited options, and chose the best among them." And seem to be suggesting that because I am saying I chose the best option, therefore I am asserting it is a good option. I have no idea where you get this idea from, since, again, it's clear that I had Ez as hard town prior to the EoD. The conception that I'm oblivious to my own reads and voted Ez because I simply forgot I had him put as hard town is absurd.
Do you really think my ultimate mafia gameplan is to hard town-read someone for the whole day then just turn around and vote them for no reason, contradicting myself with no gain whatsoever? If I'm scum and don't know Moldy is getting modkilled, a NC is super good for me there.Your attacks all carry passive-aggressive tones to them, like linking the meaning of a compound sentence to Cape's post (which was admittedly funny but it's a double standard if you are upset with me over this), so I'm not sure where this comes from. That was passive-aggressive, and I believe that "I think" so clearly refers to the following part of the sentence "he wants control" that it barely warrants me responding to the alternative.I apologize for outing you and your team as mafia. The fact that you think this statement in any way relates to a justification is disappointing.
tl;dr You are welcome to have the opinion you want, but please at least come to me with enough civility to not have to resort to constant ad-hominem attacks. As the rules state as well, "Attack the play, not the player." |
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Scotland
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Post by Scotland on Aug 23, 2021 0:53:51 GMT
uryxx is claiming Neap. There are definitely not 3 investigatives in the setup, so one of us has to be lying. That is known info. wasnt thought a pr?, so it would be 2 investigatives? |
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